Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill

My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I will speak to Amendments 7, 9 and 24 in my name. In Committee, I noted the difficulty of phasing the exercise of the principal transfer powers and the need for scrutiny by Parliament—there is a dichotomy. At the heart of my concerns then was that Parliament would potentially be signing a blank cheque. On the other side, there may very well be a need to move swiftly in the event that a decision is made to nationalise a steel asset. The first three amendments in my name in this group go some way to brokering this compromise. They offer two different routes of addressing the issue of the Secretary of State’s obligations regarding the financial cost of any intervention. Amendment 1 directs this attention to Clause 2 and inserts an obligation on the Secretary of State to take into account the impact on public finances before exercising the principal transfer. However, during Committee and subsequent discussions with the Minister, it became clear that the Government feel they have some legal reservations about any modification of Clause 2. Therefore, Amendments 7 and 9 seek a similar action but focus on Clauses 4 and 15 respectively instead. Overall, of course, government decision-making relies on tests that must be conducted by accounting officers. I expect the Secretary of State would have the impact on public finances in his or her mind at all times, and I am sure there would be some Treasury Ministers leaning over that particular Secretary of State in the event that any decisions were made. However, by putting this responsibility in the Bill, it will be easier to hold the Secretary of State and the Government at the time to account on the value for money of any issue. In the event that the Minister feels constrained in accepting Amendment 1, I hope he will accept Amendments 7 and 9. Amendment 24 addresses a different issue and returns to pension liabilities, which we debated in Committee. It is clear that, in the event the Government exercise the principal transfer power enabled by the Bill, the pensions of all ex and current workers of that asset become an important responsibility. This amendment is clear in its assertion that Parliament needs a view on these liabilities. If the Minister is unable to accept this amendment, I hope he will take the opportunity to clarify the Government’s approach to pensions from the Dispatch Box. I beg to move.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for reminding us of the importance of contingent liabilities and the need for the Government to complete due diligence before any acquisition. He rightly says that in a hypothetical case—not British Steel Scunthorpe—it might be necessary to move quickly, and then there will have to be some trade-offs. But if we are talking about British Steel Scunthorpe, there is obviously no need to move quickly. The Government moved very quickly many months ago, and there can still be proper analysis. I would hope, indeed, that as Ministers and their chosen executives are now responsible for British Steel, while they do not own the assets, they would have done a lot of this very important preparatory work on discovering the contingent liabilities. Where in Amendment 11, the contingent liabilities are mentioned by category, there is an omission which could be extremely important: liabilities to employees for past problems with safety and health, and—God forbid that this does not happen—for any liabilities that might follow now that the business is under the operation or control of Ministers and their chosen executives, if some safety or other health problem arose. Where people are running these very large, industrial businesses, with the obvious threats of a very powerful fire in the furnace and the dangers of extremely hot liquid steel being moved around, it is crucial that Ministers and their chosen executives have taken all the right decisions on making sure people have the right protective clothing, there are the right protocols, and there is an absolute segregation for the employees from the risks. There also needs to be an understanding of whether there have been any longer-term health risks from the atmosphere around the blast furnace or the intense heat of some working conditions. If Ministers have not already done so, they need to take this very seriously. Whenever I was responsible for a big plant, my main nightmare was that something would go wrong on safety, and that would be unforgivable. I am not expecting the Government to give ground on these amendments, but it would reassure the House and the wider public if the Minister could tell us more about where they have got to, at least in general terms, with exposing the contingent liabilities on pensions, safety and employee health, as well as with the other financial matters mentioned clearly in these amendments.

My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and I agree with his earlier analysis. As it happens, I agree with a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, said on this as well. Whereas there may be certain safeguards in Scunthorpe, there is considerable worry in somewhere like Port Talbot arising from some of the experiences we have had, which I referred to in Committee. I hope the Minister will be able to give some assurances on this.

I rise to speak to Amendment 11 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. It is vital, as we have said throughout our consideration of this Bill, that there is clarity about the liabilities which may be acquired when the Government exercise a principal transfer power. That is particularly important in relation to environmental liabilities. Steelworks are substantial and long-standing industrial sites and any environmental liabilities associated with the transfer could represent a significant future cost to the taxpayer. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his amendments in this group, which rightly focus on the need to consider the public finances. We have consistently raised the issue of the costs associated with share and property transfers and pension liabilities when compensation is assessed. I thank the Minister and the Government for their engagement on these amendments, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say and hope that at least some of these amendments will be accepted.

My Lords, before turning to the amendments before us, I begin by placing on record my sincere thanks to the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe, Lord Hunt and Lord Fox, for the constructive and collegiate way in which they have engaged throughout the passage of this Bill. We have not agreed on every point, but their contributions have been thoughtful, serious and rooted in a shared recognition of the importance of the UK steel industry. I am grateful for the time they have taken to meet with me to test the Government’s position and, for raising their concerns in such a fair and friendly spirit. Responding to the points raised in this group, I will speak first to Amendments 7 and 9 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. Over the course of this Bill’s passage, I have had ongoing and constructive conversations with the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, about the cost of nationalisation and the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Lords and I agreed that the Government must consider the costs of any nationalisation before exercising the powers. As I have stated to this House previously, existing public spending governance controls provide for this, with cost and value-for-money considerations embedded in the Managing Public Money principles and the well-established process of accounting officer tests. However, the noble Lords have sought a statutory requirement on the face of this Bill. Through our conversations, I have been persuaded by their arguments, and I am pleased to say that the Government will support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, which requires the Secretary of State to consider costs before exercising the share or property transfer powers in Clauses 4 and 15. We hope the House will agree. Our agreement on this issue reflects the commitment of noble Lords to ensure that this Bill is as comprehensive and effective as possible. It is an excellent representation of this House’s ability to work collaboratively, and I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, for their engagement on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has also put forward Amendment 1, which would require the Secretary of State to have regard to the public finances when considering exercising the principal transfer powers. Given that the purpose of this amendment is achieved through Amendments 7 and 9, I do not think this is necessary in addition. The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Wirral, have tabled Amendment 11, which would require the Government to provide a statement to Parliament outlining the value of contingent liabilities associated with a steel undertaking, and the steps taken to minimise taxpayer exposure to them, prior to an intervention. As I have set out previously, I have concerns about creating additional hurdles that must be cleared prior to the exercise of the transfer powers, given the likely need to act at pace. There is also a practical difficulty in publishing the details of a private company’s financial information prior to a nationalisation. None the less, the Government share the desire of the noble Lords to minimise the taxpayer’s exposure to liabilities as far as possible, and that will inform our decision-making. If a steel undertaking is nationalised, we would expect its annual report to include details of its liabilities, where relevant. We will discuss liabilities again in later groups today, and I look forward to that discussion. I hope that that helps to clarify the matter and provides the noble Lords and the rest of your Lordships’ House with sufficient reassurance. Amendment 24, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, requires that where the Government have exercised the transfer powers, the independent valuer must prepare a written estimate of a steel undertaking’s pension liabilities and provide that to the Secretary of State, who should then publish the estimate before Parliament. Pension liabilities will of course differ for different companies. If the Government were to decide that it was in the public interest to nationalise British Steel, I reassure noble Lords that our understanding is that there would not be significant pension liabilities, as the company has a defined contribution scheme and so pensions would be funded from an existing pot. In cases where pension liabilities are relevant to the value of a steel undertaking that is subject to the powers under the Bill, the independent valuer should consider that as part of their assessment. None the less, publishing this in isolation would be unhelpful without the full context. The Government have already committed to publishing the outcome of any compensation scheme. Therefore, I do not consider this amendment necessary. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords, even though there are amendments in this group that I do not support.

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Before coming to the Minister’s words, I will pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, on health and safety. I turn his attention to Amendment 21, which returns to the issues of health and safety and environmental liabilities. Although his point does not need to be made again, the debate on that amendment is when the Minister can respond to it. I thank the Minister for his response to Amendments 7 and 9; I believe that they will take scrutiny a step forward. His approach to accepting them is very heartening. It is therefore clear that, if we accept Amendments 7 and 9, we do not need Amendment 1. On Amendment 24, I am reassured by the Minister’s comments on one particular steel asset. Although we do not expect it, in the event that the future Act is used for other assets, pensions may become an issue. Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, particularly in Committee, there have been some missteps around employee pensions. It is very important that, whoever the Government of the day are, they do not make those missteps again and create the situation we have seen and on which the noble Lord commented. On that basis, and in thanking the Minister for his acceptance of Amendments 7 and 9, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. I have no wish to repeat at length the arguments made in Committee, but I feel that the Government should be clearer about the public interest test that lies at the heart of these powers.

My Lords, there will be an issue with the public interest case, if and when we get to the full nationalisation of British Steel at Scunthorpe. Many of us are unclear as to whether the Government’s aim is to find a medium-term or longer-term solution to the problem of how to keep the two existing blast furnaces running and keep a basic steel-making capability in the United Kingdom, or whether their policy aim is still—as with the previous Government and as is the case in south Wales—to move to closing the blast furnace and opening an electric arc furnace in a new plant, which may be on that land or somewhere else. If it is the latter, it will be much more difficult to establish the public interest case for the complete nationalisation and transfer of the blast furnaces, because that will end in tragedy for the people working there, so it will no longer be the case that the main purpose is to keep the jobs. It will not resolve the issue of the electric arc furnace, because that will need separate grant aid and might even be better on a different site. We need to know more about the phasing. In the case of south Wales, the blast furnaces were closed before the electric arc furnace was available. If they did the same again at Scunthorpe, there could even be a period when the United Kingdom will not be making any steel at all on those two works, given the transition plan. It would be very helpful if the Minister, who will have to take this policy on, gave us a little more on the Government’s thinking about the duration of the investment in the blast furnaces, and whatever information he has about the state of those plants and the ability to maintain continuous production there, and on the Government’s intention in their net-zero strategy, which implies that steel would have to be made in a different way.

My Lords, because this is Report, I will not repeat my Committee speech. Briefly, Clause 2 is unchanged and Clauses 4 and 15 have been amended along the lines that the previous groups suggested and begin to bring the rigour at the start of this process. The request made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for information after the fact, if it has to be brought forward, seems reasonable, but on that basis I do not support the amendments as they stand.

My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions to this debate. Noble Lords have highlighted that the public interest test in Clause 2 is a vital part of the Bill and I very much agree. It is important that we get it right. Noble Lords have tabled several amendments to this clause and we have had fruitful discussions on them at previous stages, but I am happy to return to them. Amendment 2, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, would limit the public interest factors that could be considered by the Secretary of State to those explicitly set out in statute in Clause 2. As I have set out previously, the Government agree that these are likely to be the most pertinent issues in relation to an intervention in the steel sector. We have sought to strike a balance in the Bill between minimising the scope as far as possible and ensuring that we can adapt to evolving circumstances. That is why we think it is necessary to retain some flexibility to consider other factors that may be relevant to a particular case, which may be difficult to anticipate. Let me be clear that the legal test in this clause places particular emphasis on the factors that are explicitly set out. Where the Government seek to rely on other factors, they will need to be satisfied that those factors mean that an exercise of the powers is necessary in the public interest. I therefore do not consider the amendment necessary and respectfully ask that it be withdrawn. Amendments 3 and 5, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, would create procedural steps that would need to be fulfilled before the transfer powers are exercised. Amendment 3 would require the Secretary of State to commission an independent assessment of whether the public interest test has been met and for that assessment to be met prior to using the powers. Amendment 5 would require the Secretary of State to provide details of the criteria used to demonstrate the public interest. Both are difficult to reconcile with the likely circumstances under which the powers could be exercised. The Government will likely need to act at pace to deliver an effective transfer. However, the Government will commit to publishing a Written Ministerial Statement following an exercise of the principal transfer powers, which would include details of how the public interest test has been met. I hope that provides some reassurance to the noble Lords, even if we cannot meet the full ambition of their amendments. Finally, Amendment 4, also tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, would require the Secretary of State to be satisfied that the exercise of the transfer powers would represent value for money for taxpayers. The Government are mindful of the potential costs that could be incurred in relation to the nationalisation of a steel company. This consideration is already taken into account in government decision-making under the usual public spending processes, as I have set out previously. Additionally, as we discussed in the previous grouping, the Government are supportive of Amendments 7 and 9 from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, which would require the Secretary of State to consider costs prior to the exercise of the principal transfer of powers. These amendments go some way to addressing the concerns raised by the noble Lord Hunt, and I hope that will provide some reassurance.

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Redwood and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for their comments. I am grateful indeed to the Minister for his reassurances and the commitment that he has given, which meet many of the concerns I expressed earlier. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, these amendments stand in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. As we stated in Committee, we cannot have a perpetual sunset clause. A sunset that can be extended indefinitely and for an unlimited period at a time is not a meaningful sunset at all. I welcome the Minister’s engagement on this aspect of the Bill. The amendment would provide an important safeguard by ensuring that any extension of the principal transfer powers can be for no more than two years at a time. That would provide greater certainty for investors, greater assurance for taxpayers and a clearer expectation that these exceptional powers are not intended to become a permanent feature of the Government’s industrial policy. It is also important that we have a Government who are confident in their stated aim of securing private investment for British Steel so that it can thrive on a commercial basis. Regular parliamentary approval for any extension will help to ensure that Ministers continue to focus on that objective. I thank the Government for recognising these concerns and for working constructively with us to ensure that this amendment can be accepted. I beg to move.

My Lords, two years is quite enough for these powers, and it is generous of my noble friend to suggest allowing another two-year extension. As I understand it, these steel matters are being considered under a £2.5 billion multiyear estimate, which was meant to be for the modernisation of the steel industry. When it was originally agreed, people had in mind that this was going to be grant aid for new electric arc furnaces and other such investments—not to pay continuous and high losses on an older technology plant that may not have the long future we would like. To get into better order with the Treasury, the Government might want to have some self-imposed restraint on the duration of this. We have been led to believe that the rate of loss is at least £500 million a year on the two blast furnace activities that are currently under the Government’s control but not in their ownership. That would be a totally unacceptable continuing rate of loss and would eat into what should be modernisation money. That would mean they would get to the end of this Parliament with very little improvement to show.

My Lords, I am in slight confusion that I hope the Minister can clear up. My understanding of Amendment 6A is that it offers a one-term renewal of two years, meaning a four-year total for any sunset clause. I might have misheard what the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said. I am assuming that is what Amendment 6A is seeking to achieve. If we are reassured by the Government’s assurances on their intention, in a sense we do not need this—but it is certainly helpful to have it. If my reading of Amendment 6A is correct and it moves it four years as a maximum, it will move it into the next Parliament, where the Liberal Democrat Government will take a view.

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. I will respond to the point from the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, on financial assistance when we cover financial assistance in the sixth group. I am grateful for the points raised regarding the sunset provisions in Clause 3. The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, have tabled an amendment that would limit any extension of the sunset period to two years. I have had helpful discussions with them on this matter. Throughout debates on this Bill, we have emphasised that the Government are strongly minded to use the powers in the Bill to nationalise British Steel, subject to the public interest test, and do not currently see a need to use them for other steel undertakings. However, the steel sector faces challenges that can be beyond the control of government or companies themselves. It is important that we reserve the possibility of intervening in this way if it is needed in the public interest. The amendment from the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, strikes a good balance, allowing the Government to preserve the powers if absolutely needed while limiting any extensions of those powers to a limited period and subjecting them to an affirmative parliamentary debate. We recognise the need for this level of scrutiny, and it is appropriate that any extension be limited to a short period only. I am therefore pleased to lend my support to the noble Lord’s amendment.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 8, 10, 12 to 14 and 40, standing in my name and that of my noble friend. I thank the Minister for working constructively with us on Amendments 12 and 13. It is vital that where the Bill confers regulation-making powers of real consequence, the default should be the affirmative procedure. Amendments 8 and 10 would apply that principle to the core transfer powers, regulations transferring securities, and regulations transferring property rights and liabilities. We understand the Minister’s argument that in exceptional cases powers may need to be exercised. Turning to Amendment 40, I ask the Minister for a clear assurance that a thorough impact assessment will be brought before both Houses of Parliament after the various powers in the Bill have been used. Given the potential effect on taxpayers, workers, investment and the wider steel industry, they must assess whether these exceptional powers have delivered the outcomes claimed for them. Finally, Amendment 14 would remove Clause 50. The Constitution Committee was clear that the broad power allowing the Secretary of State to modify the law in relation to a share or property transfer “should either be removed or significantly tightened”. That is a serious recommendation from an important committee of this House. The Government should either accept the committee’s recommendation or make much clearer in the Bill the limited circumstances in which such a power may be used. I look forward, therefore, to the Minister providing some assurance on Amendment 40 and on the Henry VIII powers. I beg to move.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 15 and 16 in my name, but first I speak in support of Amendments 12 and 13 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, which I have co-signed. Importantly, these would add necessary additional parliamentary control over continuity obligations and property transfer regulations. We moved similar amendments in the Commons that failed to attract sufficient support there. Regarding Amendment 10, the Minister has convinced me that the need to quickly transfer property rights transcends the necessity of moving to an affirmative form of approval from a negative regulation. That is why I have not co-signed Amendment 10.