Commercial Payments Bill [HL]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to start this Committee on the Commercial Payments Bill. In doing so, I declare my relevant technology interests as adviser to the Crown Estate and Simmons & Simmons LLP, and as non-executive director of the Avalanche Foundation and Avalanche (BVI) Inc. The Bill is incredibly significant, particularly for a small business or microbusiness which has found itself for far too long on the wrong end of late payments. In many ways, my Amendments 1 and 9 in this group go to the very essence of the Bill. There is much that is significant in the Bill but, largely, all of it is subsequent to that fundamental point around the 60-day and 30-day payment periods. Everything else in the Bill is largely supportive of that reality, so this first group of amendments addresses the fact that it is critically important that the Bill is absolutely precise as to when the clock starts and ends. As the Bill is currently drafted, it is not only entirely possible but an actuality for thousands of businesses that they will be told that they will receive 60-day payment terms, when in reality the payment may not arrive within 60 days, 80 days, 100 days or up to 120 days. That will still be possible if the Bill remains in its current form. There needs to be greater precision about the start point and end point of that clock. Amendment 1 in my name addresses that start point and suggests that the purchaser has to give clarity to the supplier about how they are to give notice. This is critical because at the moment time can disappear, with an invoice or other notice being given by the supplier in good faith only for them to find themselves bounced around that often larger business—this is not necessarily because it is gaming, although sometimes that is certainly the case, but because of its multidepartmental and multipoint nature—until that 60-day clock starts. Amendment 1 addresses this and would sharpen up how that notice period has to begin. If clarity is not provided, the amendment would give clarity in that the notice can be deemed to have been given by the provider of the product by means of a recognised document that anybody in business would recognise—the obvious one being an invoice. Similarly, Amendment 9 goes to the issue of verification. It would stop, as a consequence of the Bill, verification being used to expand or extend terms other than what the Bill seeks to achieve. Together, the amendments look at the start point of the clock and would give the precision required to stop days going by before day one is triggered. We will come to amendments in later groups about effective precision around ending the clock, but these amendments, particularly Amendment 1, would give the precision required for all involved to know that day one means day one. I look forward to the debate and the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 10 in my name. Before that, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on Amendments 1 and 9. These seem to be eminently sensible suggestions. I wonder whether, if the Small Business Commissioner makes very clear their view on when the clock starts ticking, that would make it very clear should any dispute become necessary. At the very least, there needs to be clarity from the Small Business Commissioner if these amendments are not accepted. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe, Lord Hunt and Lord Leigh, for their support of Amendment 10. The intention of the amendment is clear. Increasingly, economic activity is switching from familiar structures and supply chains to one where businesses market their goods and services via third-party marketplaces and intermediaries, and where the subsequent payment goes back through those intermediaries. The amendment would bring such marketplaces and intermediaries into the context of the Bill by providing that payment is not treated as made to a supplier until the supplier actually receives the money, by requiring any intermediary that collects on a supplier’s behalf to pay it within seven days, regardless of how the intermediary is legally categorised. I think this is a fair change, though I am sure that there will be resistance from the sector. The focus may well be on the time needed by the intermediary to make the payment to the vendor. A distinction may have to be made between when an intermediary has control of the goods in a warehouse and when it is purely acting as an agent. I am happy to have a discussion and debate about this, and there may be ways in which this can be dealt with. However, it would be very remiss for the legislation to leave your Lordships’ House without any provision, either primary or secondary, for the Small Business Commissioner to have or take the power to bring intermediaries into the remit of the Bill.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond for introducing this debate. I welcome all noble Lords back for what will, I am sure, be a productive Committee stage. I shall begin with Amendment 1. I understand the principle behind my noble friend’s approach. The Bill performs a balancing act, relatively successfully, between good payment practice and regulation. In achieving the former, we have to be careful not to overstep into the latter. It is my interpretation that new Section 2B, to be inserted by Clause 1, already succeeds in ensuring that both parties to a contract are made aware of the payment terms in the four cases that are accounted for. For that reason, I am hesitant to support requiring the purchaser to give instruction on how a payment notice should be given. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I ask the Minister first to outline what the Government regard as best practice for issuing notices under the Bill, which may very well include the Small Business Commissioner making it extremely clear what they think are the right best practice terms for issuing these notices. I am much more supportive of my noble friend’s Amendment 9, which would prohibit the increasing of a verification period after the day on which the Bill is passed. The Bill is about increasing payment efficiency; ensuring that the verification of a payment does not take longer than was previously necessary is obviously a core part of achieving that. Alongside my noble friends Lord Hunt of Wirral and Lord Leigh of Hurley, I have added my name to Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. It is eminently sensible that an intermediary should not be used to delay or circumvent payment terms; in other words, an intermediary should be used as an intermediary. Ensuring that payments go through third parties swiftly and efficiently, and that the payment is not treated as complete until it reaches its final destination, is surely the key to improving payment practice. I hope that the Minister will agree in his response.

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate; I thank in particular the noble Lords, Lord Holmes and Lord Fox, for their Amendments 1, 9 and 10. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for all his work in the area of AI and digital technology, which we welcome. I recognise that these amendments were tabled in a constructive spirit, seeking to ensure that suppliers are paid promptly, with which we do not disagree; to ensure that payment processes are clear; and to ensure that purchasers cannot use contractual mechanisms to delay payment unjustly. Those are their aims, which the Government share. Amendment 10 would create a new legal requirement for intermediaries, including online marketplaces, to send payments to a supplier within certain time limits. I understand the concern underlying the amendment. Where a small business sells through a platform or marketplace, it is important that the money due to that business is not held unnecessarily. However, that is neither the purpose nor the structure of the Bill. The Bill focuses on late payments under commercial contracts for the supply of goods and services. It strengthens the consequences that arise where qualifying commercial debt has been created and where payment is overdue. It sets clear limits on payment terms between suppliers and purchasers, and strengthens the framework for interest enforcement and accountability. Those protections already apply where there is a relevant commercial contract between a supplier and a purchaser, including where the supplier is ultimately paid via an intermediary. However, where a platform or marketplace is merely holding, processing or transmitting funds between others, the Bill is not intended to regulate the wider intermediary relationship. Accepting this amendment would, therefore, move the Bill into a different area of regulation. It would establish a new statutory regime for online marketplaces and payment intermediaries, rather than maintaining the Bill’s clear focus on commercial payment practices between suppliers and purchasers. As such, although I respect the intention behind Amendment 10, I do not believe that this Bill is the appropriate legislative vehicle for it. Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, seeks to ensure that purchasers provide suppliers with greater clarity on how notices under the new Section 2B are to be served. I understand the practical purpose of the amendment. Suppliers need to know when they have properly notified a purchaser of the amount that is due. Purchasers also need clarity so that payment processes are efficient and unnecessary disputes are avoided. However, I hope to reassure noble Lords that the Bill is already sufficiently clear on this point.

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and the Minister for his response. Amendment 1 is not seeking to be overly prescriptive but merely to be clear. While I understand the Minister’s points, there is still a gap in the middle with the provisions if Amendment 1 or Amendment 9 are not accepted, with possibly too much space where the purposes and provisions that the Bill seeks to achieve may not come to pass. However, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.

My Lords, there is a wonderful structure to the groupings so far. Group 1 started with Amendment 1 and group 2 starts with Amendment 2—we are all following so far. In moving Amendment 2, in my name, I will speak to Amendment 7. Amendment 2 is simply a probing amendment and seeks to suggest 30 days as the period—period. There would be no sense of different payment periods. It would be 30 days, be you a local authority or not. In no sense am I expecting this to be accepted into the Bill. My purpose in tabling the amendment is to test where the thinking is on bringing those positions closer together over time. Ultimately, as we will come to in later groups, the potential is that, through smart contracts and fintech solutions, it will be possible to have all the terms set out. Once they are satisfied, atomic settlement automatically occurs by virtue of that smart contract and payment is instant. Now, we are not there. On that journey, accessibility and inclusion, not least digital inclusion, need to be at the fore, and alternative means always need to be in the mix. However, as that is entirely possible today, 60 days seems somewhat old-fashioned in the light of what is already possible. It is fair to try to get all to the 60-day point because, as noble Lords will know, and as smaller micro entities out there will know even more painfully, oftentimes it is double that, never mind 60 days, if not more. However, I am interested in the Government’s plans to bring 60 through 45 to 30 on a continuing route, and to keep reducing that, because 60 is still far too long. In most instances even today, it is not justifiable or necessary. Amendment 7 goes to the point of stopping the clock to have some greater precision as to what the end point is of that 60 or 30 days. I have used “unencumbered” funds as a proxy for that. It is not suggesting that this is the best or only measure, but there is a need for a more precise measure and to put in practical terms what this means for the service provider. If 60 days is always extended at the outset and then potentially stretched at the end, so that the funds finally get telegraphed only on the final day, there are a number of days for those funds to be unencumbered in that business’s account. But that is not 60 days. I appreciate that there are difficulties in trying to then work out what is standard practice for various financial service institutions to clear their funds. However, there are industry standards which could be considered, if not included, in that 60-day period. I look forward to the debate and to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

I advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I will be unable to call Amendments 3 to 5 for reasons of pre-emption.